December 2 Interview with Fanai

INTERVIEW

The interview was more like a group discussion, Fanai wanted to hear our ideas and what we thought of first, and then she would tell her side. Anything that starts with a (-) means that it’s one of the group members speaking. I couldn’t track which member said what because it would have slowed me down too much. If there is no (-) then it’s Fanai talking.

Decoder:

IND = Independent; GU = Guam; Poli = political; Poli Stat = political status; FAS = Free Association; w/ = with

AAFB = Anderson Air Force Base; Ex. = example; ___ = the name of someone I couldn’t catch; PI = Philippines; UN = United Nations

àThis has been edited so that it will make sense to those of you who weren’t there.

Interview Begins:

((She asked the members why we chose to be in the IND group))

-If GU was a state there would be more racial problems.

You’re saying that there’s some kind of cultural difference and racism?

-They can’t see the people for who they are and what they look like.

-From an emotional point of view, IND is more empowering as a Poli Stat for GU

-It’s time for Cham and the ppl of GU to truly have a say in our destiny, and for us to be able to shape that w/out having a power more powerful than us, telling us what to believe

It kind of has to do w/values, right?

-This is a question on how GU Poli Stat should be changed. IND is more advantageous. If you’re gonna make a change it might as well be worth it and it should be a big change instead of a little one. (ex. FAS)

I’m from Sinajana. My family’s land up north is currently occupied by AAFB. It’s interesting to hear that some of us say that we’re not really political. ___ is a scholar in Hawaii. Because she is a native of Hawaii, her reality and existent became political. The native’s (in Hawaii) are at the bottom and have the highest rating of all the bad things (ex. Unemployment, incarceration). They say, “We have a home, we just don’t have houses.” All of those realities plus the reality that their culture is being prostituted; it’s being commercialized. (Ex. Hula; what do all the tourists want when they visit Hawaii? They all want to see the hula dancers). All of those realities for her as a native, politicized her.

Politics can also be shady too sometimes.

Why would you say you’re not political? Are you still learning about our status as a colony? What defines that thinking of being non-political?

-Most of the people are indifferent or don’t have an opinion because they feel like GU’s status won’t improve any time soon. Or we just don’t know enough actual facts to make a fair and real opinion about it. Everyone tries to tell you the good stuff first, and tries to hold back the other stuff. Nobody really knows what’s true and what’s not.

I never really thought of myself as a poli person either, and then I guess following what I thought was right, it became political.

Being here I want to be able to have a dialogue w/everyone because I cannot tell you the answers. IND is something that we have to figure out together. Not one person will have the solutions, not one committee will have the solutions, it’s everyone. When we apply what our dreams are, that’s when the reality can take form.

I am an artist. I enjoy being in the field of history and studying our story. History is really “his story.” I like to call it our story. What has happened? And what has shaped how we are today?

I wouldn’t say that I’m a teacher.

Usually the person seen as the one with the answers is the teacher, and I think that everything should be more of an equality.

I’ve been in the movement, in politics and non for maybe 11 years now. It’s been quite a journey.

-Where do you stand?

If you’re talking politically, then IND is to me the best option, because with the other options, the US has eminent domain. That means that the US has the power to take lands.

-Do you have any positive input like statistics about how much better GU would be?

I don’t really have statistics, it’s more like: Have you ever done something, and you didn’t really know what has gonna happen, or how it was gonna end? Ex. When someone goes skydiving, parasailing, or being afraid of hikes, but they made that decision, that they were gonna fly, or be in the sky.

You took that step. You did it. Even though you were scared, or others were scared for you, or scared for themselves. It’s like that.

There’s an article that can help you. It’s a short account of what has happened with the other territories. It looks at Statehood, and IND through countries like PI. ((she’s referring to the 14 page reading Dakota sent out on Nov 29, written by a female professor from Mills College. You guys should read it, it’s good.))

She (the Prof^) mentions PI and that they are an IND entity, but they are bound sometimes by economics.

Can we do it on our own? Again, it goes back to that (skydiving), we really have to be unafraid. Because really, it is our fears that colonize us. If you look at history, of the people that were unafraid, they are the ones that have gone far.

-The other groups will probably use the argument that we can’t take care of ourselves w/out foreign aid.

It’s mostly the business minded people, and people that are in many ways attached to the current state of our economy, which is capitalist, that can’t handle it.

-How are we going to rebuttal the other groups when they say that we cannot fend for ourselves economically? When they say “we shouldn’t be IND because we don’t have the means to take care of ourselves”.

-Look at Hurao when he was trying to talk to his people, about how they used to be fine before the Spanish came. If we could take care of ourselves back then, we can do it now. I mean look at PI. They were a poor economy but they’re still growing. It’s slow, but they’re growing.

There is no weak input. All input is strong, every idea is strong. ((she’s trying to get us to talk more))

-Compared to PI right now, right now GU depends on tourism. That can be a strong. And since they’ve already been coming here, what’s gonna stop them from coming back? We can push for tourism. PI can prosper more because they have a lot of land and they can make rice, flowers, etc. We only have tourism and coconuts. ((joke))

And we have the ocean. A lot of it.

-No one’s gonna feel like wanting to change; they’re not gonna give up their cars. Back then there were a lot less people then, and they could support themselves. It’s not really the same now.

-Do you know the #  of military personnel on GU?

It’s always revolving. It always fluctuates. Especially at AAFB.

:Regarding how we can defend against attacks from the Statehood group:

Let’s look at the issues that are currently plaguing the other statehoods. What you’re doing is that you’re bringing the question back to them. What IS happening w/Statehood? The movement for change right now is growing. If our system here, was more like the states, would we really be better off?

-I would argue and say that we don’t have anyone to fall back on if things don’t work out for us.

It’s like chess. They might ask a question, you ask a question back, they respond with another question. And you can do that until you have the question that’s most essential.

The IND state of Samoa/Western Samoa, they are an IND nation. They don’t thrive just because they’re IND. That’s the thing about IND, they actually have to think about how you can be interdependent among our allies. Maybe those against IND are just looking at our island here.

What if we break our colonial chains? It’s all about EEZ ((Exclusive Economic Zone)). How far does your ocean go into other nations? If we look at each other (all the islands), we would be as big as the US.

-Reunification

-They could say that GU isn’t PI, or Samoa, and it’s possible that the other places might not want to even help us at all.

PI is also wanted. So is Palau. So is the whole of Micronesia. Because w/out us they wouldn’t be able to do Star Wars ((the name of some military plan going on. . I think. .)), were they shoot long-range missiles. The largest atoll in the world is occupied by the US military, and they are FAS w/the US. So they’re not better off.

I think we should all answer it, because this is what’s going to make your presentation strong, because the arguments that you’re putting forth are very valid. But you should know the examples of what’s going on in the US. If you think the US is too far, look at HI. The natives are at the lowest rung, they are land less; many are incarcerated. Maybe finding statistics on IND is harder, but let’s look at the reality of Statehood and their statistics, or FAS and their statistics.

Look at IND Samoa, and IND PI. Look at their problems and how the solved them, take the best and leave the rest. Look at where they have succeeded for their problems.

:Regarding US bases in other countries:

VFA ((Visiting Forces Agreement)) is what really dictates US policy with PI, same with Japan. That’s how Okinawa is controlled.

That has to do with ‘Jap and the US’, and ‘PI and the US’. And it’s dictated by the US, even at the UN level.

-Even though PI is IND, they are still bullied by the US. If we use PI in our argument that it’s “prosperous,” even though they are IND, a lot of their things are still dictated by the US.

Bring it to a bigger picture; why? Why are they still being controlled? Not every aspect of PI is controlled. Why does it happen?

It happens because of colonialism. It’s an academic term, it’s invoked a lot of times. Basically if you have the US in the UN, it affects the other countries’ votes. You can “pretty up” the term and say neocolonialism.

Take your argument to a bigger picture, because until colonialism or neocolonialism is resolved, it doesn’t matter if you’re a State or IND. It’s just the same order in new clothes.

You need to strengthen the info that you have, because if you strengthen what you have, what the other groups might ask (when they attack) might not be so hard to counter.

:Regarding GU being allies with the other Marianas Islands through reunification:

-Even if we do reunify with the other islands, the US can just bomb us.

-I don’t think they can really do that, won’t all the other countries get pissed off at US for doing that?

-I’d say that a good majority of countries, ex. those in the UN would not be happy with the US if they did that. I think it’s a bit too extreme to say that we’d be bombed if we went against the US. Sure it’s possible, but that possibility is radically and inhumanly extreme. You’re thinking more like Nazi Germany.

:Regarding people fighting for their rights ??:

-It’s happening locally first, Lybia, Egypt, Palistine, Arab Springs, Greece, UK. There were more people protesting in the streets. Latin America. Asia. There are power uprisings in PI since ever since. It starts with people. I think we have the potential to join the worldwide movement. What can our experience tell us about what’s happening, and how can we engage the world. Put it in the global context.

-For IND, if GU were to change it’s poli stat, what exactly would IND mean for GU? It does mean we make our choices, but exactly what benefits are there to changing our status to IND?

-We get the ability to choose GU’s fate and what happens in the future to GU. For foreign countries that have military bases, the US would have to lease that land.

-We would get a very un-strong dollar, the “Guam Dollar” and we can get our own postage system

-We could choose to freely associate ourselves, or ask for assistance from other countries and not from the US.

The US dollar doesn’t seem to be doing very well these days. It’s really in essence, just a piece of paper, and simply something that the masses of society validate, when in actuality, the US is in debt to China.

You should think of other positive impacts.

-If we were IND, do we still have to be a part of helping the US pay back their $13 trillion debt to whatever countries they owe? If we were IND, do we need to pay the US for any debt? Do we have a debt to the US?

I think from what I understand, in order to have more money flowing into the system, there has to be debt.

-That’s like school in a way, with student loans. To get your degree you need student loans, you go into debt and you’re gonna have to pay that back later. But in the end you get a better job. So you have a debt at first and then later the money comes in.

Let’s talk about a similar idea but in reverse. What about the people that go to school, go into debt, get a degree, and DON’T find a good job?

It does say a lot. That there are many people on GU and they can’t get into UOG because it’s run by a certain elite group. But really that group is profiting off of a system of racism. They have all this access and we, who are trying to get our own access, are denied.

I would say that the best approach to IND is to think outside of decolonization, because what if there’s 3 guys who are really good at propaganda and convincing you to join their side, and they make people believe in them. Then those people simply say that they believe but don’t really feel it ((like going to church)).

When you vote, it’s a mindset, and a way of life. If you cannot live interdependently then you cannot be IND. Can a baby survive on its own? It needs stuff. It’s interdependent on others. And when it grows it becomes part of that link of interdependence.

There’s a lot of arguments against IND, and these are the things that sound so un-important, but these are the things that ARE important. What are the values that people are holding? They value killing one another for a piece of bread? If those are the values, then we will not be IND. If the values are to help one another, then that helps interdependence.

And yes the big fish (bigger countries) will eat the little ones but think of Cuba. They have free medical, and don’t have to pay to go to college. They’re small, but they’ve made something w/what they’ve got. PI has gold that the rich countries extract. How can they be IND if the rich countries are extracting from them?

-Who will guard the guards? Who will watch the watchers?

In all my work, I think what has taught me the most is that this type of change cannot be done without having a community. So it’s kind of like an oxymoron, because you have to be interdependent to be independent.

The people who are chairing the status commissions, they are friends in the community. And they would be considered activists and political people, And it’s funny because they know and respect each other but they all really believe in the same thing.

-A better Guam.

-If we have no solid defense against these arguments, then we’re gonna get killed out there. They might even say anything, it could be all BS and we have to be ready to defend all of that. Together as a group we need to figure that all out

-A good amount of our defense and argument will have to come from us emotionally. Not just numbers and “oh, it’s stated in this book and on this site.” Independence ITSELF is an emotional idea.

But, it would help to have a lot of concrete substance.

-We have to be ready.

-Because I know some of our classmates have no problem just shouting out BS

:Regarding the Gubernatorial Debates that happened last year where one candidate brought up a random thing to try and trip up the other candidate:

The only part that I remember about the gubernatorial debates is the funniest because it’s true.

Calvo was talking about how Guttierez said that the water was safe to drink, but it was taki (poo) water. Guttierez countered with “it may have been taki water, but you bottled it and sold it as Pepsi”.

Even though it’s a little absurd, maybe a tactic like that would help.

-We have to be ready to be as dirty as the others. We should cover all our bases.

:Discussion moves to a new topic:

-Speaking of bases, if the US removes it military from GU, what’s going to stop us from getting invaded by someone else?

In IND Samoa their strengths are that they don’t have a military, they have no military at all.

They don’t have a military but they have allies in New Zealand, and Fiji. Fiji has a military and that military has its own strengths and weaknesses.

IND Samoa has never been invaded.

You won’t find anything that’s all black or all white, it always in between.

-Who’s to say that we will be invaded, or that we won’t?

-There are all sorts of things that can happen. Not paying compact agreements, coups, you never know.

Look at what are the strengths of IND and what holds it down. And that’s reality, there are give and takes. If you’re debating w/others it’s good to know the pitfalls of the others.

-If we know their weaknesses then we can attack them back. I doubt that they’ll even look up their strengths to cover their weaknesses.

-We should focus on strengthening ourselves.

Conceptions’ stuff was on point. We have resources and our greatest resource is our mind. Just think about all the different things that people can do with a plastic cup, just using their imaginations. When people tell you that you cannot do it, if that’s the argument, that is what keeps us down the most, more than anything.

It’s more than just seeing the gates at the military bases, it’s our mindset that “there’s the gate, and I cannot get to the other side, because there’s a gate there.”

But there are some people that took the risk, and they climbed over that gate. Even if we get arrested, we will be on the other side.

They saw it, and they did it, without them trying to occupy that place that road near the base over there would not be open today.

Maybe one of the greatest threats is that we don’t have eminent domain on you. Because look at what’s going on w/the region. There’s nuclear threats all over the place, Korea, China, even our home here. How many accidents has the US had involving nuclear armaments? There are bombs and weapons that fell from planes, fell to the ocean and have never recovered. A tank that had depleted Uranium fell into Apra harbor. Nuclear submarines have crashed, and think about all the training that they do here.

-I like how this discussion opened it up our ideas of IND and challenged us to imagine it. That could be a really solid strategy for us. Ask everyone there to remove the idea of “CAN’T”. Challenge everyone’s imagination. We should challenge ourselves. Really imagine ourselves as IND.

We should find someone in our history who traversed the “can’t” to be our figure.

You should really try to find and talk to the people here that traversed the CAN’T, because there have been people here that traversed the movement, and they made changes to the life here.

-Where do we go from here?

-Follow up meeting Sunday/Monday?

:Regarding finding a Song/film/book-poem: <- where the emotion will come from

I know one song that you guys might be able to use. It's Hawaiian and it’s called the Song of Sovereignty. (sovereignty is the other side of the can’t. Something that is unmovable)
((http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms4nslLw4ZI found it on Youtube))

((Francine and Nate went to a sticker-maker place))

((If you guys want to pull funds, we can get 30 or 40 jumbo flashcard sized stickers for $1.50 each))

:Regarding colors for our outfit that we can wear for the debate:

-We must be matching

Try black, red, or white.

-How about “I love GU shirts” and we cross out “Where America’s Day Begins” and use “Where Guam’s day begins”

:Regarding people not giving a crap about Guam’s poli stat ?:

People will say a lot that our lifestyle will change, and that is true. But the state of where things are going, is not a good place. We are over consuming the world. We cannot keep going the way we are. If my shirt was made in Vietnam I’m pretty sure someone was exploited for my shirt.

Think about what is IND about? What are your values?

For me, I value not oppressing another person. I think there was something that went around the internet once like “how many slaves do you own?” The state of the world’s monetary system now supports that slavery. Like the sex trade industry. And people think of IND as wanting it to be different from that, as create something different from that. Different than seeing a B-52 bomber flying over Guam’s skies. A different life than that.

Have you debated much about the vote?

There’s all of this commotion about Dave Davis suing the GU Election Commission.

:Regarding Dave Davis and him suing over the plebiscite:

For decolonization, for the vote itself, it applies to those that were made citizens by virtue of the Organic Act. It’s about people who were living here at the time of the Organic Act and their descendants being the only people allowed to vote (for GU’s status ??). Dave is saying that it’s discriminating against the other people.

That’s a main fear that a lot of people have. “Well, I don’t get to vote, so why should I support it?”

Chamorro people never had a say in what their island will be. It’s kind of like a trust thing. We have to make this decision because of how it has affected us. And after we make this decision, then everyone on the island has a say in how we’re going to be. Really it’s your everyday life where it applies.

I’m not really a statistics person, I like the philosophical aspect.